Rules discussion; phases

What? Nah, Honolulu's inactive, kob1ld stepped down as GM.

Chinese if your unhappy you can GET THE FUCK OFF OUR FORUMS!

Chinese R-3 wrote:What? Nah, Honolulu's inactive, kob1ld stepped down as GM.

Kobo1d is still a mod.
You ever wonder why he has a red name?

Chinese R-3 wrote:That's 3 different rulesets (Kaiser, Cherdenko, kob1ld)

I love how you agreed with me that what you CLAIM was said by kobo1d was silly, while also ignoring the fact that I consider kobo1d better at understanding his own rules than you, and that I asked where, exactly, he said that, because I didn't see a damn thing about that in the first post.

I also love how you think Kaiser and I were interpreting income differently.

Kaiser Arger wrote:Chinese if your unhappy you can GET THE FUCK OFF OUR FORUMS!

Why don't you get off our forums if you're so angry?

Premier Cherdenko wrote:I consider kobo1d better at understanding his own rules than you,

Well that's not exactly surprising given how poorly they were written. I'm sure he knows what he was trying to say.

I also love how you think Kaiser and I were interpreting income differently.

Right. On exactly which part of the turn do you two think that rights to loot are awarded?

Btw: post from kob1ld regarding money being retcon'd to the capturer:

End of Battle:
For each territory that has changed hands during a war, the player who lost the battle no longer gains the gold/resources from that territory, but the winning player does.

Premier Cherdenko wrote:
Kobo1d is still a mod.
You ever wonder why he has a red name?

Mods are not GMs.
GMs are not Mods.
Those two jobs are different.
Stop trolling.

Chinese R-3 wrote:

Premier Cherdenko wrote:
Kobo1d is still a mod.
You ever wonder why he has a red name?

Mods are not GMs.
GMs are not Mods.
Those two jobs are different.
Stop trolling.

I'm not trolling.
Game master carries no privileges directly related to the forum itself; modship does.
Kobo1d is no longer the game master because he's too busy.
But he's still a mod.
And mods have banhammers.

Chinese R-3 wrote:When nations are taken by non-war expansion, they don't generate gold on the turn they are picked up.
When nations are taken by war expansion, they don't generate gold for their new owner on the turn they are picked up.
That gold, then, goes to the previous owner.

If that's not what you suggested, write up your own phase system so I can see what the hell you're going on about.

That is exactly what we've been saying.
Now stop being a niggerfaggot and post that shit in the rules discussion thread.

Chinese R-3 wrote:

Kaiser Arger wrote:Chinese if your unhappy you can GET THE FUCK OFF OUR FORUMS!

Why don't you get off our forums if you're so angry?

our

I don't think so.

Btw: post from kob1ld regarding money being retcon'd to the capturer:

End of Battle:
For each territory that has changed hands during a war, the player who lost the battle no longer gains the gold/resources from that territory, but the winning player does.

Congratulations, you are now a powergaming munchkinfaggot who enjoys playing by the word and not the spirit.

Premier Cherdenko wrote:That is exactly what we've been saying.

And yet, Kaiser just said that's not what he was saying.

Tell you what. You tell me the order in which you think the following shit happens in a turn. Kaiser should do the same. Then we'll figure out exactly what the rules are, because right now they're unclarified, and you're both doing a hell of a lot of abusive trolling and not very much rules discussion.

A player is declared the winner of a war
A player picks up territories from a conquered opponent
A player's held territories generate gold for that player
The Majority of the turn is played

Because I assume you want the player to declare what territories they want when they roll their dice.

I think it goes "Declared winner at start of turn, for wars rolled in previous turn" -> "Collect territories using stockpiled gold" -> "Earn income for territories held". What order do you two think it goes in?

Premier Cherdenko wrote:
I don't think so.

Right. These are kob1ld's forums, and as far as I can see, you and Kaiser have as much of a right to be here as I do.

Congratulations, you are now a powergaming munchkinfaggot who enjoys playing by the word and not the spirit.

Supercool adhominem, given that the spirit hasn't been defined, and you're just being an abusive troll that apparently can't stand to discuss anything.
So, you have less of a right to be here than I do.

Income -> Expansion, Declaration of war, Rolls, Fluff, etc. -> War is resolved (once everyone who will roll, rolls; for simplification, we can say this happens at the same time as turn end/start) -> Old Turn Ends, New Turn Begins -> Income

Right. These are kob1ld's forums, and as far as I can see, you and Kaiser have as much of a right to be here as I do.

Honolulu's actually, and kobo1d doesn't have an "l" in it, but I suppose that's irrelevant.
You are the one who should get out because you are the one complaining about the rules.

Supercool adhominem, given that the spirit hasn't been defined

the spirit hasn't been defined

What? Do you realize what you just said?

you're just being an abusive troll that apparently can't stand to discuss anything

Yes, I am the troll.
I am the one who wants to change the rules because they don't suit my definition of a PBEM game, a label which only I apply to this game.
I am the one who wants to declare myself Supreme Game Master and remove any ambiguity from the rules at the cost of simplicity.
I am the one who insists that everyone agree with him that his new rules are totally supercool, even though I'm new to this forum and still haven't so much as skimmed the last two games.
I'm done with this argument.
Get the fuck out.

Premier Cherdenko wrote:Declaration of war, Rolls, Fluff, etc. -> War is resolved (once everyone who will roll, rolls; for simplification, we can say this happens at the same time as turn end/start) -> Old Turn Ends, New Turn Begins -> Income -> Expansion

Which is what I was originally planning for before kob1ld told me that no, if I declared war in t3, I could not use the income from the start of t4 to grab lands.
At that time, his word had more weight than yours, and I assume it still does.
So no, you are the one wanting the rules to be changed.

You are the one who should get out because you are the one complaining about the rules.

You're complaining harder. You should get out more.

the spirit hasn't been defined

What? Do you realize what you just said?

That the spirit wasn't defined. ... Is this a trick question or something?

Yes, I am the troll.
I am the one who wants to change the rules because they don't suit my definition of a PBEM game, a label which only I apply to this game.
I am the one who wants to declare myself Supreme Game Master and remove any ambiguity from the rules at the cost of simplicity.
I am the one who insists that everyone agree with him that his new rules are totally supercool, even though I'm new to this forum and still haven't so much as skimmed the last two games.

Alternatively you could discuss them instead of trolling like an angry trolly mc.trollerson from the trolliest villiage in troll country on the trolliest mountain of troll.
Also, kobo1d disagrees with your interpretation of the rules.
Seems there's more than one interpretation of the rules.
So, I make a thread to discuss the rules - and, moreover, to remove any ambiguity from them.
Yes, that makes me a 'supreme Game Master' in the sense that the only powers I've assigned to myself in the phase diagram are "Be the turn calculator" and "If a player rolls but doesn't say what they're rolling for, have them do what seems obvious".

I may be new to the forum, but you are wrong, you are abusive, you are not contributing to the discussion, and thus you have less right to be here than I do.

Get the fuck out.

Why don't you?

Okay, now that the abuse from the USSR is over, let's get back to discussion.
Phases.
What order does shit happen in?

China's proposed plan:
Step 1: Everyone rolls their dice for a war.
Step 2: Winner earn rights to grab land.
-midnight happens-
Step 3: Winner grabs land using gold in his coffers
Step 4: Gold is earned from all territory a player has

USSR's proposed plan:
Step 1: Everyone rolls their dice for a war.
Step 2: Winner earns rights to grab land.
-midnight happens-
Step 3: Gold is earnt from all territory a player has
Step 4: Winner grabs land using gold in his coffers.

Kobo1d's plan:
Step 1: Everyone rolls their dice for a war, and states:
What they plan to do if they win, what they plan to do if they lose.
Step 2: Winner earns rights to grab land.
Step 3: Players grab land they want automatically (if they won)
-midnight happens-
Step 4: Gold is earned from all territory a player has.

A proposed plan that I don't really understand:
Step 1: everything happens at once
-midnight happens-
Step 2: ?
Step 3: Profit

Free for all plan:
Each player applies the phases in the order they see fit. Specify what order stuff happens in for book-keeping so total gold count doesn't go wonky.

Troll plan:
Yell at people to 'follow the rules' when they're not defined.
Get angry and flame when asked for clarification.

---

Additionally: Game masters.
Do we:
A. Get a Game master?
B. Make the rules plain enough that one is not needed?
or C. Trust the players to follow unclear rules fairly?

There are problems with all 3.
A. necessarily requires someone do the job.
B. removes simplicity.
C. Maximum trollstorm potential.

China R-3 wrote:Which is what I was originally planning for before kob1ld told me that no, if I declared war in t3, I could not use the income from the start of t4 to grab lands.
At that time, his word had more weight than yours, and I assume it still does.
So no, you are the one wanting the rules to be changed.

USSR's proposed plan:
Step 1: Everyone rolls their dice for a war.
Step 2: Winner earns rights to grab land.
-midnight happens-
Step 3: Gold is earnt from all territory a player has
Step 4: Winner grabs land using gold in his coffers.

Try harder.
You want me to contribute? I'll fucking contribute.

What you have down as kobo1d's plan is EXACTLY WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING THIS ENTIRE TIME.
Not ONCE have I said that you get to use income from the NEXT turn to claim territory.
If you had the slightest bit of reading comprehension, you'd be able to tell that I have been saying this entire time that war is resolved once everyone who will roll, rolls.
We did this for the entirety of NG2, and I haven't seen anything implying it was done differently in NG1.
Because those games didn't have income, I understand that things are a tad bit more complicated. For all intents and purposes, war should be considered resolved between turns, after the current turn has ended, but before the next turn has begun. Since war is resolved BEFORE income, it is therefore impossible to spend new income on old wars.
Let's take a look at the plan I laid out:

Income -> Expansion, Declaration of war, Rolls, Fluff, etc. -> War is resolved (once everyone who will roll, rolls; for simplification, we can say this happens at the same time as turn end/start) -> Old Turn Ends, New Turn Begins -> Income

Where there did I so much as IMPLY that you can take territory with income you didn't have last turn? Please, show me.

That the spirit wasn't defined. ... Is this a trick question or something?

No, it's a statement that once you define the spirit, it becomes the word. Which is all fine and dandy if the word is exactly what was intended, but if the word is unclear then the average human being should have enough reasoning power to determine the intention.
Sure, you CAN use Manipulate Form to give yourself an ability that prevents your hit points from dropping below maximum, and you CAN use it to give yourself an ability that automatically sets your AC to 1 above the attacker's attack roll (with modifiers), but that's not the INTENTION.

Then, Mr. Premier, you could try calming down and stating your plan clearly like I have done, and that way you won't get so upset.
So that's 2 votes for kobo1d's plan, and I'm fine with kobo1d's plan as it's basically the same as mine, but with more if-thens in turn order.

Premier Cherdenko wrote:Where there did I so much as IMPLY that you can take territory with income you didn't have last turn? Please, show me.

Income -> Expansion,

War is resolved ... -> Income

War is resolved -> Income -> Expansion. Income before expansion.
Or, is taking territory as the result of a war not included under 'expansion'?
The 'spirit' would require a clairvoyant to determine.

Wait. If your plan is the same as kobo1d's, which is damn well the same as Mine but with more if-thens, then what are you being angry about? Territory transfer not costing money? :S

Final phases:

Main phase - 23 hours, 00:00am New york time to 23:59pm New york time
During this time, everyone makes their claims, rolls their dice, orders armies built, announces what they're doing, proposes transfers, accepts (or doesn't accept) transfers, and otherwise gives orders for their turn.
Note that you must specify what territories you are planning to obtain, if you plan to obtain any, in a war.
The Game Board does not change during this time.
Orders cannot be given preemptively for the any future turn.

Resolution phase - instantaneous
This describes the order in which things are resolved based on the orders given during the turn.
Resolution phase A: Income
Delicious jewgolds flow in from lands. This does not happen if you did not post last turn.
Resolution phase B: Supply armies with gold
Armies are supplied. This does not happen if you did not post last turn. If insufficient gold to supply an army, disband it.
Resolution phase C: Grab unclaimed lands
Unclaimed lands get grabbed. Please note that the cost is equal to (your number of lands) gold if you attacked someone with intent to take over that person's lands, on the same turn.
Resolution phase D: Resources
Get resources from lands.
Resolution phase E: Transfer
Transfer resources to other people. Receive resources from other people. Also transfer money to other people and receive money from other people, too.
Resolution phase F: Army powers up
Your armies gain +0.1 for every different resource you have. Resources are then discarded.
Resolution phase G: Resolve all wars
Wars are resolved in pretty much the same manner players have been doing all along.
Resolution phase H: Grab lands from war
Players specify, when they roll to attack, what they'd like to grab (assuming they have the money). Then, those lands are grabbed (and money deducted) if they win the war.
Resolution phase I: Build armies
Build armies. If insufficient gold, instead don't build armies.
Resolution phase J: Go.
Start playing your turn.

Note that, if you fail to win a war, your only other option for spending the gold before your next turn is to build an army. Then again if you're losing a war that's probably what you WOULD do, but note that you can't be all like "Well if I don't win I'mma grab dat unclaimed land". 'cause you won't get income for it.

I'm going to ignore the fact that I don't like calling them "phases" because I can tell you're just trying to explain exactly in what order everything happens.

I also feel that income should happen at the same time as resources; you can't give gold to other people if you can't afford your upkeep.

Premier Cherdenko wrote:I'm going to ignore the fact that I don't like calling them "phases" because I can tell you're just trying to explain exactly in what order everything happens.

I also feel that income should happen at the same time as resources; you can't give gold to other people if you can't afford your upkeep.

Hmm. Okay, Income needs to be between build armies and supply.
Right, I think I know how to fix this shit. Gimme that hammer I'mma fix this shit.

I fail to see what is wrong with our current rules, also i Apologise for earlier if i seemed angry, i was having problems with my family and i must apologise for any misconcceptions that came about from that.

Kaiser Arger wrote:I fail to see what is wrong with our current rules,

...

Chinese R-3 wrote:

Kaiser Arger wrote:I fail to see what is wrong with our current rules,

...

Oh stop it.
You know very well that the current rules were perfectly fine, and all this did was clear up some ambiguity.

Yes. The current rules are cleared up.
That is done.
Shall we play the turn y/n?

Also requesting thread lock 'since everything's all clear.

Chinese R-3 wrote:Yes. The current rules are cleared up.
That is done.
Shall we play the turn y/n?

Also requesting thread lock 'since everything's all clear.

Don't know about you but I've been playing the turn.
inb4 you insist we start turn 8 all over again

Man, teach me to have an outside life. Holy hell people, it's a forum game. Take a breather. We'll figure it out.